Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

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prjacobs
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:06 pm

Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by prjacobs »

I'm working on the mast right now, and have removed all the old wire/rope halyards. I plan to replace them with all rope, and was curious as to what size line others are using. Looking at the sheaves it would appear that 11mm (7/16") is about a maximum, although 10mm might be a better fit.

Checking opinions on the various forums, New England Ropes VPC seems a goodchoice for halyards, and Regatta Single Braid for sheets.

I also wonder if it would be practical to make up "wire"/rope halyards using AMSTEEL-BLUE to replace the wire. I have a length of this line as a topping lift on the Vega, and I'll use it for lifelines on the Ballad. It's incredibly thin, strong, soft, and doesn't stretch. Plus single braid is very easy to splice.

Finding a method of joining the two types is next on the research list.
peterohman
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Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by peterohman »

When I replaced my halyards 5 years ago, I choose to use 10 mm all rope of the kind of quality you pinpoint. But since it still stretches a bit, it will wear out at the sheaves since the diameter there is a little too small. So I made them a few meter too long, and every spring I shorten them with some 30 cm closest to the sails to get rid of the worn parts...

/Peter
Hepne
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Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:56 pm

Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by Hepne »

Below is a standard table for the ropes on the Albin Ballad which I found on http://robship.se/tagtabellen.aspx?pageid=12
I changed the main and genoa halyards to polyester cover/dynema core and also made them a bit longer to be able to shorten them if they get excessive wear.
I also changed the sheaves at the top of the mast and replaced the sheave system where the ropes come out of the mast above the winches with modern stainless steel halyard exit plates. All old aluminium sheaves were badly worn and corroded by the old steel wire ropes.

Main halyard - Storfall: 24,3 m, 10mm
Genoa halyards - Fock/Genuafall: 28,3 m, 10mm
Spinnaker Halyard - Spinnakerfall: 28,3 m, 10mm
Spinnaker sheet - Gajar: 20,2 m, 12mm
Genoa 3 sheet - Fockskot: 7,3 m, 12mm
Genoa 1 sheet - Genuaskot: 9,2 m, 12mm
Main sheet - Storskot: 32,1 m, 12mm
Reef 1 - Rev 1: 7,1 m, 10mm
Reef 2 -Rev 2: 8,6 m, 10mm
Cunningham: 9,7 m, 10mm
Kick: 5,7 m, 10mm
Outhaul - Uthal: 5,7 m, 10mm

Hope my translation from sweedish to english is OK.

Regards
John - Ballad 510 - Hepne
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prjacobs
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Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by prjacobs »

I finally bought my lines, mostly Sampson XLS . I used 3/8" (9.5mm) for halyards and 7/16" (11mm) for sheets. I made all my splices with SELMA fids, and used their simple instructions that were included.

When I got the boat the halyards were a tangle of frayed ropes and old wire, and as I stripped the mast not much attention was paid as to "what" went 'where".

So let me guess a bit, and hopefully someone will correct my wrong guesses.

Lowest 2 exit exit blocks: spinnaker control lines over 2 single sheave blocks.
Port middle exit block: main halyard over double sheaves then down to the port mast winch.
Starboard middle exit block: jib halyard over double sheaves then down to the starboard mast winch.
Upper exit blocks: 1 for a topping lift and 1 for a spare halyard.
Spinnaker halyard: from block attached to forward edge of mast head.

Well, how did I do? :D
Bob McGovern
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:08 am
Location: Wyoming, USA

Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by Bob McGovern »

Our main halyard (wire/rope spliced) also exits to port -- which is odd. Mainsail controls are always on starboard, aren't they? Every boat I've ever sailed on. Main halyard, cunningham, preferentially reefing lines. Tho sometimes those have to go wherever space allows. Our mast came with two winch mounting plates but only one winch (port side). Maybe that's why both main and jib halyards on our Ballad exit to port?

We are adding a second winch on the mast -- and/or leading everything back to the cockpit. But definitely putting the mainsail controls to starboard, where we are accustomed. How are your Vega & SJ24 set up?

The wire halyards pretty much wrecked our masthead, too. Those are soooo going away.;) Thus far, we've left all the running rigging on the mast, until we can figure out what does what. Probably just rethink the whole thing. When we add roller furling, might be easiest to just bring the jib halyard out an exit box sheave up high. We'd need a halyard restrainer 2' down to prevent wraps, anyhow. Why not exit the halyard lower?

You must have large hands, to use 11mm for sheets!:D Don't think I could manage line that big. I've climbed on 11mm rope, & it is miserable for my little hands to belay & coil. Ended up with 8.8-10mm for most work. I'm hoping we can afford smaller, hi-tech running rigging throughout, though the premium over double braid dacron is brutal. :( Probably a $500 USD upcharge for Spectra, Vectran, or Technora.
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prjacobs
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Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by prjacobs »

My mast has two sheet winches, one on each side. Taking into account the alignment of the mainsheet coming out of the forward side of the mast, and the rotation direction of the winch, the port side was the only choice .... at least if one wants to keep everything running down the mast in alignment. Same story with the jib sheet, but to starboard.

My Vega had only 1 sheet winch on the starboard side. As the boom was on a track and the main luff could be tightened by a tackle below the boom, I put the jib sheet on the winch side and the mainsheet to port. Yes, it was a little weird at first. The San Juan had all lines led aft.

I guess the main thing is to have a line through every sheave, allowing swaps if necessary later.

My choice of XLS Yacht Braid (not XLS Extra was a compromise between budget and performance. I was happy with the price from my local supplier ($0.85 per foot).

I had a 7/16" mainsheet on the Vega, with a new Garhauer 4 to 1 tackle. It was a joy to use so the Ballad got the same kit. Yes, I've been told I have large hands :D

Anyway, today's project is to make a mast gate to cover the gaping opening used for roller reefing. I made one yesterday, but decided it wasn't pretty enough!
Peter.
northerncaller
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Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by northerncaller »

Hi Peter

Just reading through some old posts and noticed this one. Hope you've successfully rigged your boat by now! My question is about the length of your main halyard. I want to replace the wire one on Gancia Girl but I don't want the new one to be stretchy. Have decided to go for 1cm Dyneema but it's very expensive, so I want to keep the length down to a minimum. What do you recommend?

Cheers!

Mike
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prjacobs
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Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by prjacobs »

Hi Mike,
Yes, I'm all rigged and finally in the water.
As I wasn't sure yet (and still not) about running lines back to the cockpit I bought all my lines in 30m lengths, so most of the lines are a bit long.
Measuring for Dynema, I'd just run a tape measue up with the main halyard and see how much you'll need. If you don't have a long tape run a piece of old line up, mark the length, and measure it when back on the ground.
I was wondering about using a 4mm Dyneema / 10mm double braid combination, similar to a wire / rope combination. There is some information out there on splicing the two types together, but I haven't gone into the details or tried one yet. That might be a more economical way to create a no-stretch halyard.
Bob McGovern
Posts: 283
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:08 am
Location: Wyoming, USA

Re: Rope Diameters for Running Rigging

Post by Bob McGovern »

One nice thing about Dyneema/Amsteel is you can get away with much smaller lines than with polyester, so the cost difference is not so huge. For halyards on the Ballad, 6mm Amsteel is plenty (min strength = 3500kg)! As a rule, you may consider these single-braid synthetic lines to be as strong as 1x19 wire of equal diameter; so quite a bit stronger than 7x19 or 7x7 halyard wire. You can straight-swap them for wire halyards. For the deck end, you can either buy a hi-tech core rope & strip the upper part (wasteful); long-splice; or purchase inexpensive double-braid polyester rope and remove the core. Pull the Dyneema thru the sheath, stitch in place, and you have something like a wire-to rope halyard. May need a couple short samples of double braid to find one with a cover that fits well. Also, because Amsteel is hollow, it does not always hold well in clutches or cam/vee cleats, even with a sewn sheath; you may need a thin, solid line inside the Amsteel where the clutch grips it.

http://www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Product ... ductID=872

In the US and Canada, Amsteel Blue 6.5mm costs about $1.10 per foot, which is not much more than 3/8" XLS polyester. For halyards I prefer Technora or Vectran (aramid) core lines because they have no creep, but they are often expensive.:( New England Ropes makes a mid-price Technora core double braid (T-100) with polyester sheath for only $1 USD/ft @ 6mm. It's an easy core-to-core splice, too.:)
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