Continuation of the mast step discussion This is a continuation af the mast step problem previously discussed in the "2004 Triangle" thread in the "Small talk Cafe" forum. I think the problem is worthy of it's own thread in the proper forum, so please continue the mast step discussion, and documentation in this thread. Here is a link to the "2004 Triangle" thread in which the problem originally surfaced: LINK I asked about the mast step problem on the danish and the swedish national clubs technical forums a couple of weeks ago, so far no respons. But I found another posting in the danish forum, and contacted the poster. He had looked at three Ballad to buy one, all of which had the rust in or on the mast step, and decided to buy another type of boat. He happened to know about the problem, because a Ballad owner he knew, had it fixed for somehing like 3.000 euros or 4.000 dollares americanos. I will pursue this problem here in scandinavia till we know if the problem was prevented by a change of construction at the Albin factory. Kind regards Jesper Milling  | Hi Jesper - is it possible to copy those other relvent messages into here ? - Kens discription etc. Ian |
 | Here is a photo of my bildge Hull #25 showing the crack and the rust hard to say how severe the problem is until I can pull up the floor pan.
Regards Niall
Windshift |
 |
Hi
Ian
Yes it is!. If you
want, and you have the time, or somebody else has the time, You could open a new
posting in this thread, open the other postings one by one, and copy and paste
the contents, or the most relevant contents into the new
posting.
It wouldn't be a bad
idea. I don't think, but a timeconsuming task. And for the needy, it will not be
difficult to go through the original thread and look it all
up.
Venlig Hilsen / Kind regards
Jesper Milling, Fiskerv챈nget 12, DK5600 Faaborg,
+45 6261 8713
|
 | Hi Janie, I'm just getting caught up with this discussion and I'm not certain that I understand the problem. Please have patience. Do you mean that a section of your hull actually split apart, and that this was due to the deterioration of your mast step? Gordon |
 | Hi I think that this problem needs putting in perspective. The Ballad design and construction is good and solid. Whilst offering no garantees, if due care is taken, as with any yacht the Ballad will give you good service for many years. I have had the Ballad, Noontide for over 14 years. The problem with the mast base appeared on my boat and I repaired it some six years ago. The only certain way of telling that you have the problem is with the appearance of a split at the front of the keel causing a damp bilge. When this first appeared I tried repairing it by applying a glass tape repair some six inches wide over the split. All was OK for a couple of years when the split reappeared. As this was a problem on several boats in the port I was lucky in that another owner took theirs apart to investigate first. From their experience I decided to undertake my own repair. I have the version with the chart table on the port side facing aft. Removal of the bunks galley and chart table woodwork only took half a day. and not much longer to put back. Removal of the floor pan took about half a day. This is sat on blobs of filler and taped to the hull on either side where the bunks are fastened down. Before starting I had removed the Metal mast base and marked its position and height. I found the best way to remove the floor pan was brutal. Using a 2kg lump hammer and sharp 100mm floorboard bolster, I cut the tape and levered up the floor pan. Once started it came out easily. Around the engine base it was screwed to the engine tray and made good with filler. The floor pan extended up to the galley sides. Once out of the way you can get to the mast step proper. This basically consits of a lump of resin with a metal support set in it. My metal support was galvanised but the resin had cracked. Using the lump hammer and a variety of chiesls I took out the resin, bit by bit. By far and away the hardest part of the job.I used bluntish chiesls to avoid damaging the hull. The small forward bulkhead is a dam used in forming and holding back the resin for the mast step. This came out with the resin. The metal support can only be likened to a arrow head with barbs on it. The arrow shaft being the mast!! Not bad for a couple of weekends work. Now to repair and put back together. I had the metal barbs removed and enlarged to spread the load more. 150mm wide strips of glass mat were applied to the base of the exposed bilge covering the split area. The drain from the forward bilge to the aft bilge was replaced with 3/4" plastic pipe. to try and prevent the blocking that I always had to clear. The original drain came out in small bits with the resin. A new bulkhead was glassed in place. The metal support was set in place to the right height etc on blobs of resin filler. Grease the holes for the mast step to stop any resin causing problems later. Once all this had set the remainder of the hole was filled with a slow cure resin. Slow cure to allow it to be filled in one gowithout splitting. I used a resin called crestomite not certain of the spelling now but the resin people will advise. Once thats done Put the floor pan back on blobs of resin filler and tape the edges. Fit the metal mast step back and replace the wood work, Job done. Easy when said fast. Outside I replaced the earlier repair with 150mm mat over the split, smoothed and shaped to the hull. I've never had a qualm in sailing the Ballad in all weathers and still haven't. Sorry I havent got pictures but to me it wasnt anything to get excited about and still isnt. Check your hull over whenever you dry out and do or get the repair done properly first time. Good sailing Peter |
 | The message from PAB137 was very helpful. Does anyone have pictures of the cracks in the hull before repair and pictures of the repair process?
Norris |
 | Hi, Reading Peter's explanation makes it all sound very matter-of-fact, but he is obviously quite skilful. I'm amazed that the floor-pan came out so easily - my one appears very well glassed in! My Comfort (Comfort 30s and Ballads are virtually identical as they share the same parentage in 'Joker') has a deck-stepped mast, BUT, it has a steel strap across the keel-box which appears similar to what Peter describes. This strap appears to serve no purpose but its going to get a coat of looking-at on an annual basis - just in case! Ian |
 | At last! Photos of Shebeen's mast-foot. Rusty Bilge (The white pipe is my internal bilge pump.) External Crack about 1m long Stripped to floor pan (Note domestic batteries position, bilge pump and extra stowage bins.) Old Metal Shoe - Note deformation where shoe was dropping from cross-beam. Old & New Shoes - Testing for fit. Note original shoe was shorter. Perhaps resin base crumbled allowing shoe to drop. Bilge repaired. Bulkhead separation to be added then ready for new shoe. New shoe cast in place - Camera flash has wiped out detail of adjoining bilge. White flow coat subsequently applied to shoe and resin. Hope this is helpful. Shebeen refloated yesterday ready for racing on Sunday. Wish me luck! Ken |
|
Thanks for the
pictures Ken!
Is it correct to
assume that the shoe, as you call the iron structure embedded in the mast
step, must it self find support somewhere below?
Does the shoe stand
on the lead of the keel?
Does it stand on the
fiberglass covering the lead of the keal?
Or, does it simply
just transport the downward forces of the mast out into the surrounding epoxy
resin, which in turn rests on the hull as well as the top of the
keel?
It is furthermore
correct to assume that one should never make the new shoe the same size as the
old one, but always make it fit the cavity created to free the old one?
Venlig Hilsen / Kind regards
Jesper Milling, Fiskerv챈nget 12, DK5600 Faaborg,
+45 6261 8713
|
 |
Good morning Jesper
The old shoe was embedded in resin with its foot about 75-100mm above the bilge base/fibreglass covering of the lead filled keel.
The dimensions for the new shoe were taken from Duchess (Janie's boat) before opening up Shebeen. We were surprised to find the difference but much prefer the way the deeper shoe sits straight down on the keel.
A recent message referred to the cost of repair. Mine worked out very similar / slightly less, although I organized craning out the mast and did some of the opening up.
Ken
|
|
Did you by any
chance save the dimensions of the shoe, for others to possibly
copy?
Venlig Hilsen / Kind regards
Jesper Milling, Fiskerv챈nget 12, DK5600 Faaborg,
+45 6261 8713
|
| Dear Jesper, I was wondering if you had received any response from the other Ballad clubs regarding a possible change in the mast step construction, and when the factory may have started the change? thanks, jim williamson |
|
Hi
Jim
The scandinavian
forums do not work as mailinglists, so I have to check them every now and then.
So I just did, and thankyou for reminding me to do so.
At the danish forum
nobody had responded. At the swedish forum one person had responded. He was not
sure he had understood the problem correctly, and was inclined to believe that
if the iron support of the mast step rusted away, it would cause the mast to
sink down, instead of the hull to split. I replied agreing with him that in fact
the rusting of the iron support of the mast step, actually does show signs of
rust before the hull splits. But I had no comments to the idea that the mast
would just sink down. I asked again if not the problem was a known problem, and
if maybe it was solved by a change of production method at some
point.
We may read a lot on
the internet, and we should all be carefull not to report something we have not
ourselves witnessed, or seen documented, especially if we are risking to hurt
the resale value of our own boats. Therefore, maybe we need now to call out for
any documentation or eye witness account, of a hull actually splitting, and
taking in water while under sail. Can anyone reading this provide such
proof?
Venlig Hilsen / Kind regards
Jesper Milling, Fiskerv챈nget 12, DK5600 Faaborg,
+45 6261 8713
|
 | Hello everyone. I joined this group recently as a prospective Ballad buyer and have found it a useful and informative resouce. Ballads sound like terrific boats and I have found an 1973 boat that I am considering purchasing. This thread which is of course hugely concerning and may well put me off. Buying a boat with a potential £2,000 structural problem is not an attractive proposition. I wonder if anyone can let me know at what point in the production run the problem was rectified, or does it occur in boats of all ages? Many thanks for any replies. Richadd |
| Hi Richard We all understand your concern, and I just checked the danish and the swedish Ballad Club Forums, for answers on my questions mentioned above. In the Danish forum, nobody had commented, or answered, the answer I refer to above must have been personally to myself. No comment is found in the forum. The Swedish Ballad Club Website has been completely renewed, and their old forum was not to be found, or I was not looking long enough, but I can't say I have a respons from the swedes either. So the questions so far is not answered. I would strongly recommend though that you join the swedish forum and ask them the question, since they know best of all. you find the swedish forum on http://www.balladklubben.se/phpBB2/index.php and you click on "Bli medlem" (become a member) and then you accept the terms of membership by clicking " Jag accepterar villkoren och 채r 철ver eller exakt 13 책r" and then you fill in a giant form in swedish, and well...... I'm sorry it probably will not work unless you understand swedish. You have the option of using the english language, but you have to fill in the membershipform , which is in swedish, before the language changes to english. Well doesnt work. OK here is what I will do: I'll create a user of the Swedish Ballad Forum with the username "BalladExchangeUser", with the system set to english. The Password will be: "BEU" (BalladExchangeUser), and I hereby invite all Ballad Echange Users to use this user account if they want to ask the Swedish Ballad sailors questions. If they will not come to us, we will go to them. I hope you will ask the question again Richard, on the awedish forum, on this address: http://balladklubben.se/phpBB2/index.php Clikc on "Logga in" Use the userinfo from above, and ask your question in the section called "Skrov & Däck" (Hull and deck). Any replies to our common user, will be sent to this forum on the mail address Albin-Ballad@groups.msn.com and will I believe appear in the "General" section. Best regards, and have no worries about language. Everybody in scandinavia understands english, quite a few speak it and write it quite well. Jesper Milling. |
 | Richard,
I have a 1973 Ballad, and have had none of the problems previously talked about. I think any production boat has its particular design flaws--you just decide which ones you can live with. I think the Ballad is a great boat. I'd definitely have it surveyed thoughm and have the engine checked out as well.
Cathi Jones, Hull#205
--- Original Message ---
From: "Richard_Raistrick"
Sent: Fri 4/14/2006 10:36 am
To: "Albin-Ballad"
Subject: Re: Mast step - rusty or broken
-----------------------------------------------------------
New Message on Albin-Ballad
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard_Raistrick
Message 15 in Discussion
Hello everyone. I joined this group recently as a prospective Ballad buyer and have found it a useful and informative resouce. Ballads sound like terrific boats and I have found an 1973 boat that I am considering purchasing. This thread which is of course hugely concerning and may well put me off. Buying a boat with a potential 짙2,000 structural problem is not an attractive proposition. I wonder if anyone can let me know at what point in the production run the problem was rectified, or does it occur in boats of all ages? Many thanks for any replies. Richadd
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|
 | Hi, I am a new Ballad owner (Sail No 52 Unsure of vintage and if this is correct no) and am very pleased with the boat and the amount of info on Ballad Exchange. I have however a damp rusty bilge and stress cracks at front of keel and based on info and photos on this site I am attempting a repair. I have succeded in removing all the filling and exposed back (aft )of mast step, which incidentally is sitting on keel, but cannot get at forward side of mast step to remove the most stubborn filling there. The mast step is still quite secure at this stage Must I cut the forward rib to get at rest of filling or cut bits of step with angle grinder and remove filling as I go? Any further advice. PLEASE Taranaki1 |
| I haven't performed this operation myself, but even if I had, I think I might be a little afraid of giving advice on this question without actually seeing for myself what you are cutting into. So maybe in this case the best thing would be to ask a professional boatbuilder how to continue. We dont want you to cut away on any healthy fiberglass (GRP). On the other hand, GRP can be replaced, and maybe some of your GRP is not healthy. You should probably add some layers of GRP from the outside anyway, to cover the cracks, and may choose to remove some old GRP on the outside before adding new layers. In the same way, maybe you should replace some of the inside GRP as well. I think asking a professional boatbuilder would be appropriate in this case, but maybe it's just a question of cutting away (carefully) till you see the fibers in the fiberglass. Remember however allways to leave the surface smooth, to ensure a good bond between old and new fiberglass. Maybe somebody else will add to this? |
 | Hi Jesper and other owners with mast step problem. Thank you for responding so fast. It is not my intention to remove or interfer with the GRP hull at this stage. I am still trying to remove the mast step from the cast in resin. When I have this done I will be able to assess the repairs necessary to the hull, both internal and external but prior to that have to fully remove the step. I have succeeded in removing all resin at aft of step but it is still firmly anchored with the cast in resin at forward of mast step which I cannot access as it is behind the grp frame supporting the main cabin bulkhead. Perhaps some of the skippers/owners who have completed this operation can advise Brendan Taranaki 1 |
 | I have an realy early Ballad from first year called Ballad. My mast step is also rusted. I have concidered to cut it up and do a replcement.But I vould liked to know how the inide is before cutting up. The Iron-beam might last for long, but the rust make it ecstract and may cause further damage to the hull. So do anyone have records of hov the constuktion of the ballad- maststep is? |
| Have you studied the pictures in this discussion? |
| Hi again, I have just succeeded in removing the mast step/shoe and the resin in which it was cast. In my instance the mast step/shoe was sitting on an exposed portion of lead keel approx 75 x 25 which is level with floor of keel hollow. It was also bolted to a steel crossmember/frame which was glassed in. On further inspection the glassed in cross member was also a source of rust and now I propose to remove that and replace it with a stainless steel version or glassed in marine ply version. I am unhappy with that frame./cross member as it has a very narrow contact surface ( 6 mm in thickness x approx 500 long with the hull and in the wrong circumstances could inflict damage to hull. If I use another stainless one I propose to spread the load by adding a base of ,say 75 wide, to increase contact surface to hull to spread load. The removal of this frame/crossmember will also make the internal grp repair easier as I will be able to layup in continuous lengths. I propose to take some photos and upload when I figure out how to. In relation to rempving the mast shoe/step I had to chip out old resin with lump hammer and chisels as Peter has already said but also had to use an angle grinder to cut out the shoe step inch by inch (now exposing my age ) as I chipped out resin. The process of chipping out resin and cutting out mast step took two days and two evenings !! I propose to leave the grp repairs to Spring until weather and temperature improves. Brendan Taranaki1 |
| Hi Jesper and fellow Ballad owners with mast step issues. I have now completed the internal glassing, fabricated and galvanized a new mast step and am ready to cast in position. I have however been unable to identify or source a slow cure and low shrink resin to use to cast in the new shoe - Any advice please Brendan |
| I was going to ask if you have considered the West System (epoxy) but I see your point is that the shere mass of epoxy (or polyester) curing in one big lump, will heat up like an oven in no time. I would ask my local boatbuilder. Jesper |
 | This message has been deleted by the author. |
 | There used to be a picture of a new fabricated shoe alongside of an original rusted one that had been removed for replacement of the mast step attached to this thread. I can't find the picture anymore on the forum. It was not attached to the thread directly - I saw it on a members profile under pictures they had posted on the forum. Can anyone help me locate the picture? |
 | Hi ,I have photos of repair to mast step incl photo of new step which, when I find ,I will post Brendan |
 |  Hi ,I have photos of repair to mast step incl photo of new step which, when I find ,I will post Brendan  Could you please send pictures of mast step as i am starting my own mast step replacement. |
| Help! -I have been trying to upload a photo of mast step but my pc keeps telling me that the file size is too large (2.5mb) and the max permissable is 1 mb Brendan |
| Hi Brendan First of all thanks a lot for trying to upload picture of a mast step. It is a part of the boat otherwise never seen, and it is an extremely important part, that in some boats may cause serious concern. A 2,5 Mb picture is a very very large picture to post on the internet. This is a technical issue, but where as a good photo printer might put 600 X 600 pixels on each square inch or more, the normal PC screen only makes use of 100 X 100 pixels pr Square inch, a difference in size like 1 to 36. On top of this, pictures on the internet are often "compressed", meaning that the data of the image has been compressed to a much more efficient data format. The compression migth also, when you choose a very "hard" compression, reduce the quality of the image, so that not all pixels in the picture are quite the same color and brigthness as in the original uncompressed picture. When I prepare a picture for upload to and display on the Internet, I always try to compress it to a size of 50 Kb. That is the same as 0.050Mb. Your 2.5 Mb picture is 50 times larger than necessary. That would on some some internet connections give a download time of 50 seconds, instead of just 1 second. Furthermore, your MSN useraccount gives you only 3 Mb of room for pictures. Which off course is close to nothing compared with other Photo Album services giving you 3 Gb, which is the same as 3000 Mb. Conclusion: You need to compress your image, for the purpose of a fast download, and because MSN has set a limit. This may be done with a number of image editing programs, and most often it is done by saving the image as a JPG or JPEG file while specifying a sufficient compression. If you want to be able to make a good print of the image later on, make sure to keep the original. I hope this was helpfull, and not unnessecary long. Jesper Milling, Ballad Exchange Administrator. |
| Thanks Jesper-I will try tonight Brendan |
| Hi Jesper, Finally I have managed to compress and publish some of the pictures of the mast step and bilge repair of Temptress. For the full story just refer to previous postings. If this is suvccessful I will endevour to publish some more. You will note the steel frame which caused most of the rust - I removed totally and replaced with oak and marine ply. Brendan Attachment: Bilge and mast step repair 005.jpg |
| These pictures are very good, and very interesting. Did you have the old steel support to take measurement from, or was it completely rusted away? Do you have any drawings or measurements? Please Observe that within few days we will have to continue this discussion on the new website. I will inform everybod when the transfer is succesfully completedof course. Jesper |
| Hi jesper, yes, I have further photos of rusted steel frame and dimensions of the mast step which I will post. Jesper, could you please, for us Info Tech illiterates, post clear instructions as to how we can access,write into,review threads,post and review photos on the new site? Your committement to us fellow Ballad owners, both in time and expertise is much appreciated Brendan |
| Hi Brendan Thanks! I am sure your postings on the mast step issue are highly appreciated too. I will post guiding instructions on our old MSN forum when the transfer has been done. And untill february 21 we will be able to use the old forum for discussions on how to access and use the new forum. Jesper Milling |
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