Hi,
I'm thinking of cleaning off the bottom of "Gancia Girl" and applying Coppercoat. http://www.coppercoat.co.uk/
This is an epoxy based copper coating which, the manufacturers claim, will keep the hull clear of fouling for at least 10 years! All that is needed is a wash off once a year to keep the bottom as clean as if you had been applying a fresh coat of antifoul every spring.
I would like to know if anyone on this forum has any experience of Coppercoat, either on their own boat or that of a friend. If you do have any experience does it, in your opinion, work as well as the manufacturers claim?
It will cost approx 짙400 for me to apply it myself, which at first sounds a bit expensive, but if the stuff is as good as claimed, it's a small price to pay for not having the loathsome task of having to apply fresh antifoul for at least the next ten years.
Thanks for any replies,
Tim
 | Hi Tim: There was an article in the recent British boating press (either Practical Boat Owner, Yachting Monthly or Sailing Today) about a copper-based antifouling not performing as advertised. I can't remember if it was Coppercoat. I'll take a look at my mags and if I find the article I'll scan it and post it on this site. Personally, if I was to commit to an antifouling with an 8-to-10 year lifespan, I would first do an anti-osmosis treatment, even if it's just for preventative purposes (I plan to do this to my boat within 2007). Nicholas "Moments of Clarity" hull#334 |
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Hi Nick,
Thanks for your reply, I'd be very interested to read the article, if you can find it.
As for the anti-osmosis treatment, the company who make Coppercoat claim that it is, (and I quote)..."based upon an inherently waterproof epoxy resin. As such, the application of Coppercoat helps to protect GRP vessels against osmotic attack."
This can be found on their website "Advantages" page http://www.coppercoat.com/advantages.htm
I've read a few negative reports, but I've found that there appear to be many more positive ones, so maybe if applied correctly, it really is as good as it sounds. It does seem though, that proper preparation and application is essential for effective long term protection.
On the Coppercoat website "Testimonials" page there are favourable quotes from the magazines "Yachting Monthly", "Sailing Today", "Multihull Review", "Practical Boatowner", "Captain's Log", and "WaterKampioen", although the last one is an ongoing test started in 2005, with results due in 2015.
Before I go ahead with it I shall do some more research, obviously any more info from this forum would be good, and I will post my findings as I go.
Tim
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| Hi Tim: I'll look for the article tonight. I got on the Coppercoat site and read most of the technical bits. The epoxy formula makes a lot of sense for new boats. However, for old boats that have been in the water for years, like our Ballads, I'd be very wary about applying an epoxy-based paint if the hull hasn't had a chance to dry really well. Otherwise, you'd be locking in the moisture, since epoxy is seven times less permeable than polyester. At some point this year, I'm planning to HotVac the boat which is, supposedly, the best way to end up with a really dry hull. Anyway, if you're interested in this topic I can forward you a thought-provoking book (in pdf form). -Nicholas |
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Are you suggesting that you can 'HotVac', a hull without removing the gelcoat?
Sonata (Ballad124 'Torsk')
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Message Received: Feb 07 2007, 01:10 PM
From: "Patentnick1"
To: "Albin-Ballad"
Cc:
Subject: Re: Coppercoat
Coppercoat
Reply
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| From: Patentnick1 |
Hi Tim:
I'll look for the article tonight. I got on the Coppercoat site and read most of the technical bits. The epoxy formula makes a lot of sense for new boats. However, for old boats that have been in the water for years, like our Ballads, I'd be very wary about applying an epoxy-based paint if the hull hasn't had a chance to dry really well. Otherwise, you'd be locking in the moisture, since epoxy is seven times less
permeable than polyester. At some point this year, I'm planning to HotVac the boat
which is, supposedly, the best way to end up with a really dry hull. Anyway, if you're interested in this topic I can forward you a thought-provoking book (in pdf form).
-Nicholas | |
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| Opinions on gelcoat removal differ. Some experts suggest that since a gelcoat is an integral part of the hull it should only be removed as a last resort. Others remove it quite readily. My view--and I could be entirely wrong--is that if the gelcoat is sound and the anti-osmosis treatment is meant as a preventative measure, then drying the hull as well as possible and epoxying it is fine. Since HotVac is a very quick and totally controlable method of drying a hull (as opposed to relying on the weather) then it can probably be used with the gelcoat in place. At any rate, polyester gelcoat is a permeable material, it's not a watertight barrier. I understand that many boat owners have been taken advantage of regarding the whole osmosis issue. According to Bengt Bloomberg--a proponent of HotVac--even the word "osmosis" is inaccurate, "hydrolysis" being the right description. I will be contacting the HotVac representative in Greece (and perhaps in the UK as well) to get some answers. I'll post any information I get. If I go ahead with this method, I'll do a thorough photographic documentation anyway. -Nicholas |
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Hi Nicholas,
Yes you're quite right about the dangers of locking in the moisture by over coating a hull if it is containing some, but my boat is showing very low levels, and it would appear, although I didn't realise when I bought her, that there is possibly already epoxy on the hull.
I had her surveyed recently, and the surveyor scraped off the antifoul in several places and he states in his report "to expose a hard coating believed to be an epoxy coating". He also states "In the areas
where the antifouling has been scrapped back, the epoxy was well adhered to the gel coat with no blistering noted."
I had a chat today with the owner of the boatyard in which "Gancia Girl" is laid-up, and he thinks the coating is probably an "Awlgrip" epoxy primer. I need to contact the previous owner to find out, although I think that it may have been put on by the original owner, so I might have to try him to find out what the coating actually is. Nevertheless it would seem that the hull is dry enough to put on Coppercoat if I eventually decide to, although I'm still trying to find out as much as I can about it.
I hope you do manage to find that article as any more information would be much appreciated, also if it's possible, I'd really like a copy of that pdf book.
Thanks for your help,
Tim
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| Hi Tim: The book on osmosis is 2,5MB (134 pages) so I need your personal e-mail to send it. Please send your e-mail address to nicholas@thesyndicate.gr and I'll reply with the attachment. Also, I found the article but it's about Cuprotect, another copper-based antifouling, which is apparently much more expensive (3,000 GPB for a Contessa 32). I'll send it to you anyway. -Nicholas |
| Your comments are interesting, as you say, the polyester gel coat is moisture permeable, so it should be possible to remove moisture through it.
'Torsk' was surveyed at the end of last summer and although there was no osmosis, the moisture content of the hull below the waterline was stated as being high ( 22 on the moisture meter) the course of action recommended by the surveyor was to peel off the Gelcoat, dry out the hull and re-apply an epoxy gelcoat at a cost of 4000 - 45000, way beyond anything that I can afford.
Sonata (Ballad 124)
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Message Received: Feb 07 2007, 05:18 PM
From: "Patentnick1"
To: "Albin-Ballad"
Cc:
Subject: Re: Coppercoat
Coppercoat
Reply
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| From: Patentnick1 |
Opinions on gelcoat removal differ. Some experts suggest that since a gelcoat is an integral part of the hull it should only be removed as a last resort. Others remove it quite readily. My view--and I could be entirely wrong--is that if the gelcoat is sound and the anti-osmosis treatment is meant as a preventative measure, then drying the hull as well as possible and epoxying it is fine. Since HotVac is a very quick and totally controlable method of drying a hull (as opposed to relying on the weather) then it can probably be used with the gelcoat in place. At any rate, polyester gelcoat is a permeable material, it's not a watertight barrier. I understand that many boat owners have been taken advantage of regarding the whole osmosis issue. According to Bengt Bloomberg--a proponent of HotVac--even the word "osmosis" is inaccurate, "hydrolysis" being the right description. I will be contacting the HotVac representative in Greece (and perhaps in the UK as well) to get some answers. I'll post any information I get. If I go ahead with this method, I'll do a thorough photographic documentation anyway.
-Nicholas | |
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| Sorry, I meant 4000 - 4500
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Message Received: Feb 08 2007, 01:14 PM
From: "Verl790"
To: "Albin-Ballad"
Cc:
Subject: Re: Coppercoat
Coppercoat
Reply
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| From: Verl790 |
Your comments are interesting, as you say, the polyester gel coat is moisture permeable, so it should be possible to remove moisture through it.
'Torsk' was surveyed at the end of last summer and although there was no osmosis, the moisture content of the hull below the waterline was stated as being high ( 22 on the moisture meter) the course of action recommended by the surveyor was to peel off the Gelcoat, dry out the hull and re-apply an epoxy gelcoat at a cost of 4000 - 45000, way beyond anything that I can afford.
Sonata (Ballad 124)
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Message Received: Feb 07 2007, 05:18 PM
From: "Patentnick1"
To: "Albin-Ballad"
Cc:
Subject: Re: Coppercoat
Coppercoat
Reply
|
|
| From: Patentnick1 |
Opinions on gelcoat removal differ. Some experts suggest that since a gelcoat is an integral part of the hull it should only be removed as a last resort. Others remove it quite readily. My view--and I could be entirely wrong--is that if the gelcoat is sound and the anti-osmosis treatment is meant as a preventative measure, then drying the hull as well as possible and epoxying it is fine. Since HotVac is a very quick and totally controlable method of drying a hull (as opposed to relying on the weather) then it can probably be used with the gelcoat in place. At any rate, polyester gelcoat is a permeable material, it's not a watertight barrier. I understand that many boat owners have been taken advantage of regarding the whole osmosis issue. According to Bengt Bloomberg--a proponent of HotVac--even the word "osmosis" is inaccurate, "hydrolysis" being the right description. I will be contacting the HotVac representative in Greece (and perhaps in the UK as well) to get some answers. I'll post any information I get. If I go ahead with this method, I'll do a thorough photographic documentation anyway.
-Nicholas | |
View other groups in this category.
| |
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 | I dont worry about osmosis or water in the hull at all. Should I? Untreated osmosis never turned out to be such a terrible problem people expected it to be, and water in the GRP seems to be invoidable anyway. My buttom (that of the boat ofcourse) was painted with a Hempel Epoxy primer some years before we bought it, I doubt the hull was humidity tested, it was probably just left to dry during the winter. And doesn't a ballad usually loose a couple of hundred liters of water during a winter on the dry land? Would somebody put this in to perspective for me please and answer this question: Will water eventually make a Ballad fall apart? |
| Hi Jesper: I've read lots of books/articles on osmosis and, believe me, I'm not any clearer on the subject. Opinions differ widely. What everybody seems to agree on is that no boat has ever suffered catastrophic failure because of osmosis and, if a treatment is desired, it's much better to wait until you can do it properly, rather than do a patch-up. Also, regardless of age, not all boats develop osmosis. Boatyards that took care in their laminating procedures, allowing for proper curing of laminates, etc., have produced boats that are very resilient. For example, I haven't heard of Hallberg Rassys developing osmosis, while I know that many Beneteaus did in the 80s. Ballads, being Swedish were part of a very competitive, high-quality local boatbuilding industry, where few quality mishaps are tolerated. Also, let's not forget that the osmosis issue is fanned by a huge paints & chemicals industry. Osmosis does happen but many specialists are very keen to rush you into treatments that cost a lot of money. Another thing to bear in mind is that laminates in the late 60s and early 70s were much thicker than nowadays, which gives a greater margin in terms of structural integrity. When I installed a depth sounder 3 years ago in the area a little forward of the keel, I was amazed--and very happy--that the hull thickness was 30mm. Compare that with 17,5mm on the same area of a 2006 Bavaria 38 and you get my point. What I tell myself is to keep an eye on the hull but, for God's sake, keep enjoying sailing. -Nicholas |
| Thanks to Nicholas for getting the subject back down to earth. I쨈ll go on with moving my tiller aft, instead of rebuilding the submarine part of my yacht. Jesper |
 | 10 years! That sounds like a Mumbo-Jumbo poison. Remember that copper is a very potent poison in high doses for among others crabs making it impossible for the poor follows to mate if they live. If you use such a paint you better stay out of shallow waters the next ten years too. |
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Hi Alder53,
Yes copper is pretty poisonous, but the vast majority of normal antifouling paints contain copper as their active ingredient. Most of these are designed to leach the copper into the water as their way of preventing growth, one of the main advantages of Coppercoat, (and I can only go by what is stated in the company's website) is that it is Non leaching.
On the Coppercoat website it states.....
"Classified as non-leaching, this highly effective coating is considerably kinder to the environment than its' self eroding competitors whilst continuing to deter growth year after year. Indeed, correctly applied treatments resist weed and barnacle growth for a decade or more! The complete treatment has been tested and approved by the Health and Safety Executive, in compliance with UK and EU law. Holding HSE Certificate Number 7532 our anti-fouling is fully approved for use by both professional tradesmen and the general public. Furthermore, Coppercoat fully complies with current (2001) International Maritime Organisation (IMO) Resolution MEPC.102(48)."....
It would seem to me that this is a much more environmentally friendly way to prevent growth on the hull of a boat than I, and very likely you have been using up to now. Indeed the UK Government body The Envirnment Agency tried Coppercoat, and state.......
"In 1999 the Environment Agency applied Coppercoat to a 10m RIB to test its credentials and feasibility as a ‘green’ anti-foul. This year (October 2006) the RIB was lifted for the first time and Mark Warmsley, Transport Manager, said: “As the environment agency we are keen to use products that minimize the impact on the marine environment and as a result we decided to try Coppercoat.
The copper is suspended in epoxy resin which gives the hull extra protection and it doesn't harm the marine life but just stops adhesion of growth. As a non-leeching, long term anti-foul solution Coppercoat was the obvious choice and its’ proven track record meant we were keen to trial it ourselves. The vessel, a 10mtr RIB has been permanently in the water since June 1999 and to date not had the need to have Coppercoat re-applied.
When the vessel is removed from the water for maintenance, there is no marine life or growth on the hull. If we can minimize the environmental impact of antifouling we will and as a result we will be using Coppercoat on our other vessels in the future.”.....
It would therefore seem to me that if I do apply Coppercoat my boat will be be less poisonous than most in shallow waters for the next ten years or so.
I hope I'm not sounding too pro Coppercoat, as I'm still on the fence, but the more I read about it, the more I am persuaded as to it's effectiveness, and especially it's lower environmental impact.
I would still be grateful for any constructive, informed comments regarding Coppercoat, or in fact any long term method of antifouling boats.
Regards,
Tim
p.s. The quotes above were taken from the Coppercoat website http://www.coppercoat.co.uk/
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| Hmmm! I can surely understand why Tim is interested in Coppercoat. We like to leave the boat in the water during the winther (for the purpose of sailing in it), and only haul it out of the water for the yearly application of antifouling, the poison leaching kind. We wouldn't have to do that. And we are also very concerned about protecting the environment. I will try to remember to ask all sailors I meet, and all yacht shops I visit, if they ever heard of Coppercoat. Though I haven't heard of it ever before. The problem with coppercoat is probably, that (1) it is much more expensive, and (2) you need to remove all the old antifouling. But if you want to renew your buttom (of your boat) anyway Coppercoat may not be more expensive than for example at Hempel Light Primer treatment. Or maybe it is? I just searched google for any danish sites with "coppercoat" and I got 1 (one) result. It was a danish 40 foot luxury sailboat for sale in Turkey. So coppercoat works in warm waters too I guess? If it is not too much more expensive than a conventional epoxy treatment with antifouling on top, I would go for it. What's there to loose? If it doesnt hold for more than 3 years, just apply ordinary antifouling on top of it. And it seems Coppercoat does have very good documentation. If you do go for it, Tim, I for one will be interested in hearing how it holds up. That's for sure! Best regards Jesper Milling. |
 | Hi Jesper,
The discussion about the pro's and contra's of Copper coat is very interseting, even in the Dutch watersport magazin De Waterkampioen. Unfortunately only in dutch, but the most recent number ( Feb. 2007) gives the results of a comparison test between various types of anti-fouling, copper free and non copper free, but all anti-foulings were accepted by the (strict) Dutch authorities. Coppercoat was both tested on sweet and on salt water. None of the coppercoat tested underwaterhulls showed any pollution!! Just cleaning with a soft brush was enough!
They tested many different anti-foulings:
Coppercoat; Econautic; Hempel Combic; Inharmony/Infinale; International Micron copperfree and Micron copper containing; Neosil antifouling release system; Epifanes Foul Away; West System with coppercompound; Seajet 036 Shogun Eco; Sikkens selfpolishing; and last bot not least the by far cheapest "anti-fouling": UDDER GREASE !! In Germany called: Melkfett..
Anti-fouling is good business for the paint industry, especially for the private boat owners market, who pay the top prices...quite different from the commercial vessel business.. Coppercoat is only advisable when you are doing a complete renovation of your underwatership, incl. epoxy treatment. C.C. is expensive but on the long term it might turn out to be the cheapest..and also the least toxic for the environment.
See: http://www.waterkampioen.nl/published/wkm/content/pages/nu_in_het_magazine.nl.html
Frank
o/b LADY B
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| Ballad 124
On the matter of the pro's and con's of antifouling. There were a couple of articles in Practical Boat Owner (PBO449 & PBO481) extolling the virtues of adding Chilli powder to relatively inexpensive antifouling paint and getting very good results that seemed to last all season. No weed growth, barnacles or even slime. The only down side is that the Chilli powder changes the colour of the paint - might be worth a try. I have used it on TORSK this year so we'll see how well it works.
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Message Received: Feb 11 2007, 11:02 PM
From: "ladyB101"
To: "Albin-Ballad"
Cc:
Subject: Re: Coppercoat
Coppercoat
Reply
|
|
| From: ladyB101 |
Hi Jesper,
The discussion about the pro's and contra's of Copper coat is very interseting, even in the Dutch watersport magazin De Waterkampioen. Unfortunately only in dutch, but the most recent number ( Feb. 2007) gives the results of a comparison test between various types of anti-fouling, copper free and non copper free, but all anti-foulings were accepted by the (strict) Dutch authorities. Coppercoat was both tested on sweet and on salt water. None of the coppercoat tested underwaterhulls showed any pollution!! Just cleaning with a soft brush was enough!
They tested many different anti-foulings:
Coppercoat; Econautic; Hempel Combic; Inharmony/Infinale; International Micron copperfree and Micron copper containing; Neosil antifouling release system; Epifanes Foul Away; West System with coppercompound; Seajet 036 Shogun Eco; Sikkens selfpolishing; and last bot not least the by far cheapest "anti-fouling": UDDER GREASE !! In Germany called: Melkfett..
Anti-fouling is good business for the paint industry, especially for the private boat owners market, who pay the top prices...quite different from the commercial vessel business.. Coppercoat is only advisable when you are doing a complete renovation of your underwatership, incl. epoxy treatment. C.C. is expensive but on the long term it might turn out to be the cheapest..and also the least toxic for the environment.
See: http://www.waterkampioen.nl/published/wkm/content/pages/nu_in_het_magazine.nl.html
Frank
o/b LADY B
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Well, I've pretty much decided that if I can get a spell of mild weather soon I will try putting Coppercoat on Gancia Girl.
Yes, Jesper, it is more expensive initially. For me to apply the stuff myself it will cost about 짙450, but if it works I will not have the annual cost of lifting the boat, and the antifoul cost each year, for at least 10 years, (oh, I do hope it works).
And yes, it is necessary to completely strip the hull back to the gelcoat, and make sure that the hull is completely clean. A coat of epoxy primer is not essential, but no bad thing, mine has already had that done previously, so all I have to do is take the old antifoul off and put the Coppercoat on, (sounds simple!!). Mind you, when I see the restoration work done by others on this forum, mine looks a very minor task. Have you seen the latest pictures posted by a chap called Cobus Brits, (Kabous0) in South Africa, must have been one heck of a job cleaning his boat's hull! Beautiful result, though.
I will keep everyone updated about the application, and performance of the Coppercoat, as I go.
Tim
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| Hi Tim I think it sounds like a good decision. Over time inexpensive, environmentally friendly, work saving, Hazzle free. It all depends of course on whether or not Coppercoat actually works as promised, but others tried it out with good results, and the benefits are worth risking a few hundred pounds on. If it only works for 5 years you really haven't lost a lot of money. I hope you will let us know how your yearly scuba-examinations fall out over the next ten years. Kind regards Jesper Milling. |
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Hi Jesper,
Oops! I didn't explain properly about the lifting out bit.
Although I may do a scuba-examination from time to time, I will dry out alongside the harbour wall and use a pressure washer to clean the hull at least once each year. This I am fortunate to be able to do for free.
So watch this space.
Tim
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 | Hi Tim I stripped my boat down to the gelcoat (and in places through the gelcoat) last year and have been considering Coppercoat since reading this correspondence. I've asked Coppercoat about possible pre-treatments when the gelcoat is thin/removed and thye've advised me to pre-treat with 2 x 5 litres of epoxy primer (which they can also supply). Did you go ahead with Coppercoat? Any experiences to pass on? Did you use an epoxy primer? They've suggested a 6-litre pack of Coppercoat for the Ballad's dimensions - was 6 litres enough? Charles |
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Hi Charles,
I've been so busy since I decided to go with the Coppercoat treatment, that I haven't had chance to do it yet.
My hull has already been coated with epoxy primer, so I'm quite happy to leave it and just apply the Coppercoat on top.
Sorry I can't tell you any more than that, it's probably going to be another week or two before I can get started on my boat.
Tim
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| Well, finally an update on the Coppercoat debate. I damaged my back shortly after my last posting about Cc, so I was unable to do anything to the boat for quite a while. Then, when my back improved I have been kept away from working on Gancia Girl because we have been doing some extensive demolition and rebuilding work here at home. We've built a new outbuilding,  knocked down an old derelict barn,  knocked down the part of the house which contained the kitchen and utility room,  and are now in the process of building a new kitchen and utility room.  So unfortunately, boats have been out of the picture for a while. I did however get a local contractor friend of mine to clean the hull back to the epoxy primer. Anyway, I decided in June to put the Cc on and get GG back in the water. "How did it go?" I hear you ask........ Not well. I read the instructions, watched the DVD that came with the resin, copper, etc. And chose a day that was forecast to be warm and dry, rare in the UK just recently. The day dawned warm and dry, so I went down to the boatyard mixed my first pot of product, and started to apply it. So far, so good. I should point out at this stage that GG is in a shed with three sides, so I was working under cover. Because I was under cover, I didn't notice the clouds blowing over, and the drizzle that they brought with them, until I had finished the first litre of product. This took me all the way round the hull, and a little bit further. The idea with Cc is to apply the second and subsequent coats onto the previous coats while the surface is still tacky. The trouble is, the moisture in the air was now preventing the Cc from curing. Thoeretecally, at 20 degrees C /68 farenheit it should be recoatable after 40 minutes or so. I was working in about 18 C/ 64 farenheit, so I expected it to take a little longer. Three hours later I was getting a bit impatient so mixed the next litre of stuff, and started to apply it. Too soon! The first coat was still too wet, so the second coat lifted the first off in a couple of places. By now I was getting very worried, as it was becoming obvious that I was not going to get four coats on in the one day. I phoned the Cc company, and spoke to a very helpfull chap who said that the rule of thumb about overpainting Cc was that if you tried to sand it, and it clogged the sandpaper, then you could apply more Cc, but if the sandpaper produced dust, then it was necessary to sand the whole hull to provide a key for the new layer of Cc. I decided to go home, hoping that the conditions were so damp that the curing process was slowed sufficiently to allow me to apply the next coat without sanding down. Conditions were indeed damp enough, the next day it was pouring down with rain! I had to rig up a tarpaulin to keep the drifting rain off the hull, and then dry the hull off with kitchen roll. (Oh how I love the British summers) The Cc on the hull was still soft enough to clog sandpaper, so I put on the third coat. Needless to say, after waiting around all day, doing other jobs on the boat, I went home hoping not to have to sand down the hull the following day. I managed to get five coats on the hull in this way,  I think I had been sent enough product to do a modern, broad beamed, long waterlined 30 footer, one litre did one coat with a little left over, and I had six litres, or maybe my coats were thinner than they should have been. I can only hope that the way in which the Cc was applied won't affect it's performance. I'll keep you posted. Anyway, GG was launched a few weeks ago,  and is now back in the water where she belongs.  Yippeeee!!! Tim p.s. Nicholas, it's obviously been a terrible time in Greece over the last week or so, I hope you haven't been personally affected by the dreadful fires that have raged over there. |
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